Amazon with seizures

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

I am posting this for the lady from Hong Kong who contacted me about her bird.

This was her email to me:

Hi Beatriz,

A very big thank you to your lengthy advices. I don't have any medical background but I do agree with your comment on the vet, I live in HK and there are not many avian vets, in particular the thyroid issue, when we took my parrot back with so many adverse effects after taking thyroid for just 5 days, he still insist us to continue. My hubby and I discussed and finally decided to stop it as it does much harm than good to her. I had the feeling that he wanted to conduct test on my parrot for some kinds of clinical issues. Poor her!

Keeping parrot in HK is not as common as in UK, USA etc. I really couldn’t find a reliable avian vet here…. So instead of going on all sorts of tests that bring my parrot pains and probably no result afterwards, I am keen to try the supplements you recommended. I still have a couple questions:-

1. Where could I get all those supplements? What are L- tryptophan, L-tyrosine and N-Dimethylglycine could I find them at drug store?
2. What can I do in order to make sure she is not suffered from calcium deficiency?
3. What are the other signs of liver malfunction? Can x-ray tell? She had the x-ray on 25th Dec but found no abnormality.
4. Should I continue with the spirulina?
5. Any fruit or vegge we should look out, like try to avoid or should be given more frequently?

Thanks Beatriz, you are really an angel God sends to me!

This is my reply:

You are very welcome but I am afraid that my help is not going to be enough. For situations like this, you need a vet because there is diagnostic testing that needs to be done and the medicines are prescription. I can help you by telling you which tests are necessary, what they measure and what the results mean, as well as offering advice on diet and supplements but this cannot be treated long distance and, even if it could, I am not a vet. I just have years of experience with lots of rescue birds and do a lot of research so I have learned a bit but I have no formal training.

1. They are amino acids that affect neurological functions. DMG (N-Dimethylglycine), in particular, enhances transmission and reception in neurotransmitters (seizures are caused by the electrical signals in the brain going haywire). A bird shouldn't really need the other two as they are part of whole grains but, sometimes, when a bird has been on a oil seed diet for a long time, there could be a deficiency so, I would start with DMG, do two weeks of the other two and continue with the DMG for two more months to see if it helps reducing the frequency and intensity of the seizures (it will not make them go away until whatever is causing them is cured or the bird is on anti-seizure meds)

2. Blood work is an indication but not a certainty and you don't want to cause hypercalcemia (excess of calcium) because that is as bad as low calcium (hypocalcemia). If she has been on Harrison's for, at least, a year, she should be OK but your best bet is to feed foods rich in calcium and expose her to direct sunlight (direct as in no glass between her and the sun rays). If this is not feasible because of weather , then give her Calciboost (or equivalent avian liquid calcium) for five days in a row as per package instructions.

3. Other signs of malfunction are hard molts (you said your bird had been molting non-stop), overgrown beak and claws, oily feathers, stress marks in feathers, and, in the last stages, insatiable appetite without any weight gain and later, severe weight loss. And X-Ray and/or ultrasound and/or MRI can tell if the liver is enlarged which is always a sign of fatty liver BUT if the person reading it is not very experienced in avian anatomy, it would do no good because they would not be able to tell. Also, if the problem is tumors or aflatoxin poisoning, the size might not have changed that significantly.

4. Spirulina is very high in protein content (not good for liver or birds that have been on a oil seed diet for a long time) and iodine which stimulates the thyroid so I would discontinue immediately and replace it with a good source of betacarotene (Red Palm Oil or, if you can get it, Heal-X Booster from Harrison's). I would also recommend you put her on a detox diet.

5. Yes, sweet potatoes, oranges and broccoli.

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

Continuation of correspondence:

Hi Bea,

Thanks again, I have read your reply and registered in your website. While I am waiting for the registeration process to complete, I have to reply here.

1. I shall visit your website to learn more about the diet and try to arrange her to be on the detox and fatty liver diet. Shall try my very best to work on her diet.

2. Actually spirulina was recommended by the vet here, so I am kind of confused. But in any case, shall try the wheat germ oil first. Can I use the one for human? As I am not sure if I can get the avian type.

3. Where can I get the DMG?

4. Yes, she has been moulting for a long while, but I believe there is a reason, she was on medication for a while last year and followed by the thyroid. Afterward, her feather (almost all) turned black, since this late spring, she started moulting and the new feather are great, so I would believe it is the thyroid.

5. What's your opinion on my change on her diet from Harrison returned back to Zupeem? She started having seizure in Oct when we first instroduced Harrison to her diet and in Dec she is completely on Harrison while she has 3 times seizure, we just want to know if Harrison is the cause. What do you think? Besides, as Zupeem pellets are colored, Do you know any other good pellet we could try?

Once I get my registeration under your website, I shall send you message over there.

Once again, thank you very much for your advices and I hope GB (my white front amazon) will become healthy and happy again. Did I told you that she has only one eye? I would say she has an unpleasant history, her previous owner gave her sunflower seeds only as diet and once she was put with another parrot (larger in size) in the same cage and one of her eyes was gone. I feel really bad for her, so when she came to me, I told myself I have to do whatever I can to make her happy.

Thanks once again.[/QUOTE]

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My reply:

1. Yes, please, do try your best on the diet because it's very important to put animals with seizures on an all organic diet as some react to chemicals. And it serves as a detoxifying diet for birds that have been on oil seeds for a long time because of the liver cleansers and tonics in the treatment. I use it all the time with new birds that come to my rescue.

2. I think he was trying to stimulate her thyroid but I have no idea why. Seizures are not really a symptom of hypothyroidism in birds. It is in dogs though, so maybe he thought that because it happens to dogs, it would happen to birds. But it doesn't. But then, I don't know why he prescribed thyroid medicine to stop the abnormal molting either! Because, again, hypothyroidism does not cause a bird to molt more, quite the contrary, one of the symptoms of it is the absence of molting.

3. Yes, use human grade, all vegetarian capsules for all the supplements I recommended.

4. It could be that the thyroid medicine caused her to molt more but I am sure that the bad diet and possible liver damage had more to do with it than the medicines.

5. No. I do not think that Harrison's caused any of these problems. I don't like to feed my birds anything made with soy so I don't usually feed them Harrison's pellets but soy actually has goitrogenic properties so it slows down the thyroid (one of the reasons why I don't like soy) and it couldn't have caused the bird to molt or grow stress marks or have seizures or anything whatsoever. I actually feed the High Potency Formula to birds that have been on a seed diet for a long time for a period of time to help them get stronger faster from the vitamins and minerals in the pellets. And I know people who have been feeding his pellets to their birds for years and years with no ill effects whatsoever (and these are rescue birds, too, so it's not as if they were young and in the best of health, either).[/QUOTE]

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Her reply:

Hi Bea,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I have read the diet page on your website, unfortunately, I am not good at cooking and I am afraid the ingrediants you stated over there may not be that common in HK, I wonder if there is a simplifed version that would be more likely to be availabe in HK? I would like to focus on the liver cleansers and tonics part, what foods have such function? I dare to start it asap, appreciate if you could advice me the basic formular!!!! Thank you and thank you!

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My reply:

There are two elements to the liver cleansing treatment:

1: Lower protein

2: Herbal tonics and cleansers

The lower protein is achieved through whole grains instead of oil seeds, out of all the whole grains, I chose the ones that have the lowest protein and easiest digestibillity. There must be a place where you can order some kind of whole grains like brown rice, millet, oats, barley, wheat, etc. Try the Health Food and farm feed stores and the organic/health aisle in the supermarket, there is a product here called Seven Grain Pilaf Kashi (Kashi is the brand name) that you can make into gloop. The important thing is to replace oil seeds or colored pellets with a healthier alternative. And there is really no complicated cooking, just dump everything in a pot with 1.5 to 2 times the amount of water to the amount of grains and boil it for 25 to 30 minutes. Then you can add the veggies which you can get frozen or in cans from the supermarket.

The other part is the herbals and supplements and the trick about those is that you need to get them into the bird on a regular basis and that's the second advantage of gloop, you can add all kinds of stuff to it and they will still eat it. But, worse comes to worst, you can add them to oatmeal or any kind of baby cereal.

You can also add aloe vera juice to her water (50/50) instead of the Naturade detox formula which is no longer available (there is another one called Lilly of the Desert which is also good).

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

One more thing I am not sure I made clear enough: you need to take the bird back to the vet for more testing. You need to find out about metal poisoning and kidney and liver function (you might have the uric acid values -kidney- already but you need the bile acids test -liver). This is imperative because no diet will take care of the metal, they need chelation therapy. And, as to the liver, you need to find out not only whether the liver is malfunctioning but what is making it malfunction. Same with high uric acid, it can be taken care of as long as the cause is dietary but, if it's not, the treatment is completely different.

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

Just to make sure I got it correctly:-

I should go back to the vet for the test of heavy metal, kidney and liver function.

For the diet, I shall copy your list and go to the supermark and find as many types as I can. Wash all the grains and put inside a pot, add water (1.5 or 2 times the amount of grains) --> boil for 25-30 mins. Turn off fire, add vegge.

Sorry, here are my questions again:-

1. Can I add vegge freely to the gloop (types and quantity)?
2. How long can the gloop be kept in fridge? say a week?
3. When I take it out for my parrot, should I cook it again or just warm it with hot water?
4. Simply add supplement to it right before giving it to my parrot?
5. What should I add in the moment, wheat germ oil and DMG or others? What is alfafa, is it a powder or a kind of vegge?
6. How much shoud I give to my parrot, her current weight is 285g? Twice a day?
7. I learn from other sources that protein is important to parrot and it brings energy, will a low protein diet cause any signs of weakness that we have to watch out?
8. Should I expect to see changes in her poop? Just for my reference and so I won't scare myself.

Many thanks again!

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

Yes, you need to determine if she is suffering from metal poisoning because that is one of the reasons why birds go into seizures. As to liver and kidney, if the vet did a complete avian panel, you would already have some of the blood work you need, like uric acid levels for the kidneys and AST and protein which is part of what you need to determine liver problems. Liver problems in birds are tricky, tricky, tricky because by the time you see elevated AST and protein levels, there is already A LOT of damage. That's why you need the bile acids test which is not only much more sensitive to changes but also gives an indication of what is causing the malfunfuction.

1. Can I add vegge freely to the gloop (types and quantity)?
You can use any type of veggie that would not make the gloop watery like corn, peas, carrots, green and wax beans, beets, etc.
The final product should be about 50% grains and pulses and 50% veggies.

2. How long can the gloop be kept in fridge? say a week?
I cook a very large pot of grains, leave some to use immediately and freeze the rest. When I am running low, I take a pre-measure baggie out of the freezer, thaw it overnight and add the veggies in the morning to make a new bowl of the basic recipe. After that, I keep it in the fridge for about 2 or 3 days. I've never tried anything longer than that because it starts to get all mushy and the birds don't like it like that, they like the grains to be firm.

3. When I take it out for my parrot, should I cook it again or just warm it with hot water?
I put it in the microwave to warm it up so it's not cold off the fridge but room temperature but you can give it to her warm, they love warm food.

4. Simply add supplement to it right before giving it to my parrot?
Yes. Exactly. After you warm it up and before you serve it. And make sure to observe how much she eats and not to serve too much to ensure that she eats all the supplements every day.

5. What should I add in the moment, wheat germ oil and DMG or others? What is alfafa, is it a powder or a kind of vegge?
Add a couple of drops of wheat germ oil and a sprinkle of the other stuff, both the DMG and the liver cleansers. Alfalfa is a plant but it comes in powder form inside the capsules.

6. How much shoud I give to my parrot, her current weight is 285g? Twice a day?
I feed all my birds twice a day, early in the am and again when the sun is going down so they go to sleep with a full belly.

7. I learn from other sources that protein is important to parrot and it brings energy, will a low protein diet cause any signs of weakness that we have to watch out?
No. The diet of captive birds is too high in protein and this damages their liver and kidneys. She had been on an all seed diet for years and her last molt was way too long so you know she has had too much protein. Protein is always processed through the liver and kidneys which act as the filters of the body. When the filters get clogged, they cannot perform their function so giving her a lower protein diet (it's not really low, low, whole grains have plenty of protein in them) will help her internal organs cleanse themselves.

8. Should I expect to see changes in her poop? Just for my reference and so I won't scare myself.
There will be a difference but, most likely, it will be for the better.

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

Thank you, thank you and thank you!

I shall go shopping and work on the gloop asap. One more question at the moment re supplement, I may not be able to find all supplement listed in your fatty liver diet, am I suppose to look for the followings at the moment:-

Wheat germ oil
DMG
Liver cleanser: dandelion root, mile thistle + aloe vera in water (50/50)
And give all these to her in every meal?

As her diet has just been altered for a week, I shall do it gradually and I will definitely keep you posted.

A big thank you!

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

Yes, everyday except the wheat germ oil. Give her a drop on a piece of bread twice a week for three weeks just to bring up her levels, in case they are low. The corn and other vit E rich foods will take care of her maintenance after that. And don't forget the Red Palm Oil (you can smear a bit on the bread, too) or, if you can manage, the Heal-X Booster which has an added amino acid that boosts their immune system.

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

I have not yet tried the gloop as we finally found a reliable vet who agreed to conduct test for my parrot.

There is one thing I wish to seek your advice, the vet said as my parrot has seizures record, he propose to put her to anaesthetic instead of simply taking blood sample. My parrot has done the blood test a couple times and therefore we feel more comfortable but kind of worry about the anaesthetic and is it dangerous for parrot or should there be any side effect afterwards?

My parrot had one seizure on 18 Jan and again last night. After recovery, she is totally normal, both activity and eating are good, is it common for Parrot who has seizure?

I know I have to trust the vet, but I don't want to put my parrot to risk. She cannot voice out for herself and therefore I have to and I have the responsibility to take very good care of her!

Look forward to hearing form your soon, we shall conduct the examination on coming Sunday.

Many thanks,

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

Some vets feel more comfortable taking blood from a bird when the bird is asleep, it's not that it's necessary, it's just the vet's preference. The anesthesia used is usually gas and the effect doesn't last long and it should have no consequences. But, having said that, I do agree with you that no anesthesia is better.

The fact that she acts normally after a seizure is a very good thing. Grand-mal seizures usually affect behavior for a long time after. Do try to keep a chart on her, it will help the vet greatly. Record what she eats every day, if she pooped well, if she presented any different behavior (more quiet than normal, more vocal than normal, more active, less active, drowsy during the day, etc.) Then, whenever she has a seizure, write it down on the day it happens and mark down the time. Also, time them from the onset of the seizure to the time when the actual convulsions stop, to the time when she 'wakes' up, to the time when she is completely normal again. I learned this from having a dog who suffers from epilepsy.

Good luck! And, if you would be so kind, we would appreciate your letting us know what the doctor says, what the blood results are, what kind of meds she is put under, etc. The main purpose of this website is to learn and share our knowledge with other bird owners who might be in the same circumstances and this would help us greatly.

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

Thank you very much for your advices. I did record her diet and weight everyday. According to our record, I have some suspections, whether the seizures may because of the followings:-

1. cold weather, among the 8 tiems seizures, only one happended in PM, one at nigth time, around 9pm, the rest 6 all happended in mid-night (12 mid-night to 7am)
2. Weight, my parrot's weight ranges from 280 - 295g, siezures seems only happened when her weight is over 290g
3. fruit? she had blueberry in the day of 18 Jan and plum on 25 Jan while she had seizure in the night of both day

As we have already rule out the possibility of Harrison. Do you have any thoughs on the above.

Her seizure normally last for less than 5 mins, when she 'wake' up, she is almost normal.

I do love to share with you, hoping that the vet could find out the reason so that we could help her.

Many thanks with love!

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

Well, I had a dog that would only have seizures at night and up to three in a row, the one I have now has had them during the day but mostly late in the evening, too.

Fruit couldn't possibly cause seizures, I don't know how plums are in Hong Kong in terms of insecticides and such (here, they need to be organic and, going by what we read on the papers, China has a terrible record on using real bad stuff) but blueberries are a very hardy and clean crop so, again, although I don't know about Hong Kong, the 'regular' kind is fine in USA. Now, if the seizures were caused by a chemical intolerance, the reaction could be but it's not always immediate, it's usually more a matter of accumulation (toxins building up without been able to eliminate them). Again, with animals that suffer seizures, it's always recommended that they are converted to an organic and completely natural diet and environment (my dog even has a special organic, all natural shampoo and conditioner).

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

My parrot was taken to a blood test yesterday and eventually the vet said, she has high cholestrol (the number for general amazon should be around 200 and mine has 400 (she is a white-fronted). He believe it is alo othe reason for her seizure.

The vet is looking at her pellet and would make further suggestion on the diet and medication etc.

What is your opinion and suggestion, I have searched for the vege that would be good for her and would try to feed her with these more frequently, carrot, corn, sweet potato, bean, celery, apple.

Would like to hear your thoughs, too!

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

High cholesterol in amazons is very, very common. I just lost one I had recently taken in because of it but I've never heard or seen anything anywhere that connects seizures with high cholesterol in birds. And I personally know of four birds with high cholesterol and they never had seizures. There is a connection in dogs and cats but I don't know about birds.... I know there is a avian virus that affects the blood that causes high cholesterol in birds. A slow thyroid, breeding season, hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease) and, of course, a bad diet are all causes of high cholesterol in birds. But, again, there is nothing I could find that connects high cholesterol with regular seizures... UNLESS the cause of the high cholesterol is liver malfunction, in which case, the seizures are a symptom as well as the hypercholesterolemia.

In any case, you need to take care of it and, for this, you need the 1-2 punch: exercise and diet. Exercise is, of course, flying as birds don't have any other form of cardiovascular workout. As to the diet, you need to eliminate the food that has bad cholesterol and increase the one that has good plus you need to provide a lot of fiber so, off the bat, you need to increase raw produce consumption, especially leafy greens.

Bad food:

sunflower, safflower (not so much because they are bad for cholesterol -because they are not- but because they are too high in fat which impairs the liver functions), meat, eggs (she can have 1/8 of the white of a hard-boiled egg every now and then but no yolk).

Good food:

oats, flax seeds, olives, nuts (walnuts, almonds, pistachios).

I would make her a gloop with oats, brown and wild rice, soft spring white wheat, mega millet, chick peas, kidney beans, sweet potato, carrots, green beans and broccoli for breakfast, accompanied by a piece of a differeent organic fruit, veggie and leafy green every day. And, for dinner, I would give her a small piece of birdy bread (or a good quality whole grain, organic bread) along with some nuts.

You can also add whole grain pasta to the gloop as well as other veggies, fruits and spices to make a different flavor every day.

I would also add dandelion root, milk thistle, alfalfa and methionine to the gloop as well as adding lactulose to her water and giving her liquid milk thistle in her beak. The liver manufactures its own cholesterol as well as processes the dietary one and, in parrots, whenever you have high cholesterol, you almost always have liver malfunction -and that can, most definitely, cause seizures. Did your vet do the bile acid test to see if the liver is working right? The bird I just lost to high cholesterol had a hugely enlarged liver although she showed no physical symptoms of liver malfunction (good plumage, no overgrown beak or claws, good weight, etc).

IloveGB · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 9

Hi Bea,

Thanks again, but I am afraid that you have never met anyone who are so weak in cooking like me....

Again some more questions re the gloop:-

1. I have bought a bag of brown and wild rice and a bag of mixed grain (barley, quinoa, buckwheat, oats, millet), in what ratio should I mix them?
2. The chick peas and kidney beans you mentioned, are they dry beans?
3. Should I cook the veggie together?
4. Should the rice and grain be well cooked (like that for human)? Would that be harmful to the bird if not?
5. Should the bean and grain be soaked in water (say overnight) before cooking?
6. I normally rinse the veggie in hot water before giving to my parrot, one way because she like warm food, the other way to get rid of harmful chemical, would that be ok or I have killed all vit etc?

Shall check with the vet re the bile acid test and thanks again.

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 3548 Location: Kunkletown, Pa

1. Use two parts grains to one part rice mix.

2. I use canned beans and just add them to the cooked grain/rice mix after it's done but, if you have the time and the disposition, you can soak them overnight and then cook them until they are done.

3. Again, for the gloop, I use either thawed frozen veggies (they are previously cooked, of course) or canned ones.

4. I cook the rice al dente (firm but not cooked to the point that it splits open) and the grains for about 20 minutes so they are still hard inside -this is because the birds like them better that way.

5. I don't soak anything anymore.

6. Actually, you are better off soaking the fruit, veggie and leafy greens in warm or room temperature water (depends on what you are soaking -apples, oranges, squash, etc can go in warm water but lettuce, grapes, celery, etc should go in room temperature water so they don't wilt) with a bit of dish detergent added to it. Hot water does not kill e-coli and that's the biggest danger in raw produce.